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Panel Bashes Idea of Armed Guards in Bergen County Schools

Mahwah hosted a County School Boards Association panel discussion Thursday night where law enforcement and school officials made security suggestions for local schools

 

Armed guards are definitely not the solution to school safety questions brought up after the Newtown school shooting, but there are other measures school districts in Bergen County could be taking to make schools safer.

That was the message of a panel of local law enforcement and school officials who commented on school safety concerns to a group of about 150 school board representatives at a special Bergen County School Boards meeting at Mahwah High School Thursday night.

“In Mahwah, we are very opposed to having armed guards in schools,” Mahwah Police Chief James Batelli, a member of the panel - which also included the chiefs of the Hackensack, Hillsdale and Dumont departments, the Superintendent of the Dumont School District, and the Business Administrator of the Chester Township School District - said.

“It won’t stand the test of time. [Instating armed guards] may look good now, and may make you look like a proactive school district, but I guarantee eight months down the road they won’t still be there.”

Others on the panel added that armed security guards and teachers in the schools would be worse options, still.

The across-the-board opposition to the idea of armed guards in schools, which has gotten a lot of national attention since the December shooting at Sandy Hook Elementary School, was in response to a question from the event’s moderator, Ray Wiss, the immediate past president of the NJ School Boards Association.

Wiss asked the panel for its reaction to a recent NorthJersey.com article reporting Totowa as the first district in the county to hire armed police officers full time at its schools.

Panelists did say they saw some merit in adding security cameras and unarmed security guards to schools.

In addition, panelists suggested getting a school safety audit done to point out what potential safety hazards exist in the district’s buildings, having a constant police presence in and around schools, and keeping the lines of communication open between law enforcement and school district officials.

The event was co-sponsored by the BCSBA and Nixle, a text message alert system that many school districts are signing on to use. 

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  • Should Bergen County schools have armed guards?

    (Voting has been closed for this question)
    • Yes
        11 (30%)
    • No
        25 (69%)
    • I'm not sure
        0 (0%)
    Total votes: 36
  • Your vote will only count once. This is not a scientific poll. View Results Vote!
Related Topics: Newtown Shooting and School Security

Just Facts

10:15 am on Friday, January 25, 2013

Security is a commitment from everyone that most faculty members are not willing to make. Someone armed is a financial commitment that most school budgets cannot handle but is a viable option. Armed retired officers would be another viable layer of security. Having staff members outside and inside lobby areas with sign in and sign outs along with security cameras should also part of a security plan. But a security audit is definately the first step. The "ARMED GUARD" survey should have a "MAYBE" - because Yes or NO doesn't cover all the bases on this topic.

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lucky

10:46 am on Friday, January 25, 2013

It's a knee jerk reaction to put an armed/unarmed security guard in a school, who really believes that would stop anyone? He/she is not going to be sitting there with their gun out, so they will just be the first one shot. Or the intruder will go thru a back door instead and by the time the guard gets to where they need to be, it will be too late. Where will this stop? Should we put guards in libraries, in church, at the local baseball game? Ridiculous. How about parents start taking some responsibilities for the violence they expose their children to? Video games that have an R rating are being played by 8 year olds. Wake up people!

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Keith Kaplan

10:55 am on Friday, January 25, 2013

The data has been collected for decades and there is little to no support for the causal link of video game violence to real life violence.

If anything, I'd like incidents like this to provoke an understanding of how scientific studies are created, analyzed and used to further a productive dialogue.

Experts will tell you that when faced with an actual and tangible threat (like schools in Israel are for instance), armed security do protect students. They also control pathways, so that there aren't any open back doors, etc... They don't stand outside in the open to be the first person shot, etc...

They prepared based on the situation and could be an appropriate measure.

But that's not the case here.

Keith Kaplan

10:52 am on Friday, January 25, 2013

For me it comes down to odds. From what I've been seeing on the odds of school shooting occurring at all, and specifically occurring in any one school -- there's a greater chance of your kid getting killed by the vending machine in the cafeteria.

Before we go and waste money on a program that may or may not work - let's ask people that understand data what the PROBABILITY of this incident are and act in accordance with facts.

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Dpo

11:02 am on Friday, January 25, 2013

We guard out politicians our ceo's our banks even our homes with guns but won't guard out children? I am for cops in every school. You make the student teacher and parent feel safe.

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Vostra Guida

11:45 am on Friday, January 25, 2013

When the shooting starts, you call the police. Why is it not better for one to be there already? When seconds count, the police are minutes away (unless you put one at the school).

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Keith Kaplan

11:48 am on Friday, January 25, 2013

If shootings were happening all the time, I'd be all for it. In fact, I'd hire a guard to travel with my kid, like they do in some South American areas where K&R is a growing business.

But it doesn't happen enough in our area to warrant spending my money to keep my child safe. And if that's the case, it certainly doesn't warrant spending your money on my kid or my money on your kid.

Odds of occurrence should dictate appropriate action. How many kids went to school and came home safe every day?

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Dan

12:34 pm on Friday, January 25, 2013

@Keith Kaplan, do you think fire alarm systems and drills should be downgraded then, if not eliminated? School fires are incredibly rare.

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Keith Kaplan

1:01 pm on Friday, January 25, 2013

No, they prepare students and staff for possible eventualities. Knowledge of what to do in an emergency is incredibly important.

But that's not the comparable event here.

An equal comparison would be whether I think a firefighter and Firetruck should be parked at every school. And the answer is again, no.

And please note that the odds of a fire in a school are greater that that of an active shooter -- yet, no one is advocating for firetrucka to be posted at schools.

Mark McCullough

11:47 am on Friday, January 25, 2013

What strikes me in all this is that it is foolish to assume that, just because you hand someone a gun and put him or her on patrol around a school, they will be emotionally able to draw that gun and kill a 14 or 15-year old child even if the child has a gun. And if this is about deterrent, forget it. You put someone in that position, they have to be mentally ready to draw that gun and use it which means that we have to be ready for that to happen.

We are not.

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Vostra Guida

11:54 am on Friday, January 25, 2013

The person does not necessarily have to kill a 14 or 15 year old child. He/she can try to shoot the gunman in the leg or just slow down his progress into the school (while calling in for back up).

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Deleted because of harassment

3:29 pm on Saturday, January 26, 2013

Finally, a voice of sanity. An armed guard that is just a guard with a gun is useless in most situations. Police who are armed have to practice and prove they are proficient in using their weapons regularly, and the police still make mistakes and miss their target. An armed guard in the rare event of a school shooting that is not as skilled with their weapon at least as an officer is pointless. It's just increasing the chances of violence in the school when someone misplaces a weapon or the human being with the gun makes a bad judgement call. Anyone with children in schools know that the effort to make the schools secure is an ongoing thing, and already fraught with human errors. Like fire drills, let the school staff that don't have them already have safety awareness training for how to respond if something happens, and leave the armed guards out of the schools.

Vostra Guida

12:00 pm on Friday, January 25, 2013

Keith,
How about each town hires one less person in some other area for every additional police officer we have to hire (although I suspect many towns would be able to divert at least some current officers to such an assignment)? Problem solved, unless you believe that our government is currently running at maximum efficiency. In the end, I would be willing to pay more to increase the security of my kids at school (and your kids too for that matter).

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Keith Kaplan

12:08 pm on Friday, January 25, 2013

No

If I thought that my kids were "at risk" for a school shooting, I'd advocate the cost for proper security personnel (whether or not there were offsets). It's not an issue of money. I can go and hire a guard to sit with my kid 24/7 for the entire time she's at school - but, it would be a poor investment of resources. There's simply not enough risk to warrant it.

Don't get me wrong, it would would me FEEL like she was safer. But if it's not going to make her statistically safer, I don't need to spend the money.

What are ODDS and PROBABILITY of a shooting happening at your kids (or anyone else's) school?

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Keith Kaplan

12:10 pm on Friday, January 25, 2013

Look at the US Dept. of Education / Secret Service report:
"To put the problem of targeted school-based attacks in context, from 1993 to 1997, the odds that a child in grades 9-12 would be threatened or injured with a weapon in school were 7 to 8 percent, or 1 in 13 or 14; the odds of getting into a physical fight at school were 15 percent, or 1 in 7. In contrast, the odds that a child would die in school–by homicide or suicide–are, fortunately, no greater than 1 in 1 million."

Link: http://www2.ed.gov/admins/lead/safety/preventingattacksreport.pdf

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Keith Kaplan

12:14 pm on Friday, January 25, 2013

By no means am I saying that nothing can be done. I think that using that money to add several guidance counselors and having MANDATORY sessions with every student on a set schedule could help identify anyone that's in need of help before a terrifying situation like a shooting could occur.

And if it doesn't and we "only" help people deal with problems..... I'd be fine with that result as well.

Vostra Guida

12:38 pm on Friday, January 25, 2013

But Keith, you can't hire an armed guard to sit with your kids (armed or not the school would not allow it and since it is a "gun-free" zone, you could not bring anyone in with a gun (unless, of course, we agree to allow a police officer)).

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lucky

1:07 pm on Friday, January 25, 2013

KK - I have to be honest with you, I'm not familiar with the studies that have been done, but I can tell you that I work in a school, and each year on Veterans Day, we have a veteran (usually a recently home veteran) give a speech to our 3rd & 4th grade students. The vast majority of the boys are only interested in hearing about types of weapons and types of ammo. They are excited to hear about people being killed. One of the vets said to me after this years session - "these kids play too much Tour of Duty". So while I cannot speak of studies, I can speak of my experiences and too many kids have been desensitized to violence. They struggle with knowing the differences between fantasy and reality. I also wonder when the last time you were in a school. Most schools cover a lot of ground these days so a lone security person, would not be able to cover the entire campus. Most schools put security guards by their front doors and they are not sitting their with their weapons out. I don't believe they would be able to draw their gun in time if an intruder came thru the front door. If an intruder comes thru another door, lives will be lost while the guard gets to that location. and I ask again, where will it end? We can't put a cop on every corner.

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Keith Kaplan

2:00 pm on Friday, January 25, 2013

"The vast majority of the boys are only interested in hearing about types of weapons and types of ammo"

I hear ya. Give a kid a stick and they will have a sword fight. It's almost a basic instinct (and my daughter does it too, it's not just boys).

I'm not saying that your observations are wrong.... only that the LINK to people that commit violence isn't there. These games are played equally, if not more by kids in Scandinavian countries, with hardly any of the violence that we see.

It's important to look into stats when it comes to things like correlations. Common sense and gut feelings are horrible predictors and suffer from all kinds of confirmation bias.

I'm in the research field and have looked into several of these studies, but if you only have a moment - take a look at this one: http://kotaku.com/5976733/do-video-games-make-you-violent-an-in+depth-look-at-everything-we-know-today

It's current, gives both sides and is written for the layman with links to the original sources.

I totally agree with you about the access to schools though. When I was younger, there were literally locked doors everywhere and one single entrance to go in and out of the school. That's not the case now and it makes for a difficult security system. But I'm not an expert in security. I trust the people that ARE experts. If they say that they can do it, and have recommendations, I'd listen. But ONLY if the risk warranted it.

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Leaving

3:32 pm on Friday, January 25, 2013

Like "lucky", I am also not familiar with recent studies of violent video games. Also like "lucky", I work in a school, and have for many years. I will agree that MANY of the students, both High school and Middle school aged, seem to have difficulty determining the difference between reality and fantasy. I have had MANY conversations with teen aged boys about this very topic. What always stands out to me is the fact that these boys believe that "killing" people is the "coolest" thing, and when talking with them and trying to rationalize that there is a difference between video games, movies and "real life", they aren't very interested. They are only interested in the weapons (and they know the specifics) and the killing. This is not an isolated conversation; over the past 10 years it has occurred MANY times with Many different students. It's quite disturbing.

kevin Linn

1:19 pm on Friday, January 25, 2013

People -- We are not protecting a bank, what happens when half the children have recess outside, do we get an extra guard for the playground, more for after school when everybody is outside. Or maybe we should have an armed guard at everybody house but wait who will protect the armed guard, I know we will give an armed guard to the armed guard. There now I feel safer.

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Vostra Guida

7:48 am on Saturday, January 26, 2013

Yes, we can't protect our kids everywhere, so why bother at all? Let's get rid of crossing guards near schools too, because we can't put them on every street corner that our kids cross. Even if a police officer would not thwart every possible attack, it would be helpful if one were nearby. And these arguments about turning schools into prisons or a police state are strawman arguments. No one is advocating that, unless you think one police officer equals a prison or police-like state. Kids look up to police officers and would not be afraid of them unless their parents poison their minds about police officers.

mellie

6:12 pm on Friday, January 25, 2013

Furthermore, will we stop the teachers opening windows now in case someone comes in there? Will we install bullet proof glass? What about cinemas given the recent shooting there? I do not want my children being educated in a prison like setting. I work in a school and would feel no safer with armed security guards, in truth I would feel less safe with guns in the building. The risks of this occurring in our schools are slim and we should be spending money on educational necessities. Armed guards would be a huge waste of public resources. It just provides an illusion of safety. In reality, a mass shooting could occur anywhere at anytime. Lets keep things in perspective.

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Moist Cake

7:21 pm on Friday, January 25, 2013

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." - Benjamin Franklin

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Vostra Guida

7:40 am on Saturday, January 26, 2013

How does having a police officer at school equate to giving up liberty? By your logic we should get rid of police all together. I'm pretty sure that was not what Mr. Franklin had in mind.

joe

5:47 pm on Saturday, January 26, 2013

Anyone who is against armed guards in schools is crazy. Did anyone ask the Chief why they wouldn't be there in 8 months??? Let the teachers forgo some of their benefits to pay for the guards. There are armed guards in Walmart for God's cake, why not in schools? Is it a money issue? Then let the unions figure it out. Furthermore, if you are FOR taking away rights of law-abiding citizens in the form of "gun-control" but you are against guards in the schools, you can't be reasoned with.

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Keith Kaplan

7:32 pm on Saturday, January 26, 2013

"I am for cops in every school. You make the student teacher and parent feel safe."
- DPO

"I work in a school and would feel no safer with armed security guards, in truth I would feel less safe with guns in the building."
- Mellie

When it comes to protecting my children or anyone else's, I don't care how I "feel". If something makes my kid safer, but it makes me "feel" uncomfortable, I'm going to just have to deal with it. In the same manner, if something doesn't actually work, but lulls me into a sense of complacency, I'm not doing anyone any favors by supporting it.

So what do I do when it comes to making these decisions? I look at reports prepared by experts and evaluate what they are saying. That's why it disturbs me to see comments like:

"I'm not familiar with the studies that have been done, but I can tell you that I work in a school, and each year..."
- Lucky
or
"Like "lucky", I am also not familiar with recent studies of violent video games. Also like "lucky", I work in a school...over the past 10 years it has occurred MANY times with Many different students. It's quite disturbing."
- Leaving

Anecdotal data is HORRIBLE. That's why we TEACH KIDS IN THE SCHOOLS YOU WORK AT -- to never rely on stories and instead, to use the scientific method to test the null hypothesis. Take some time to familiarize yourself with the issue and let's be realistic about how we deal with such important topics.

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Leaving

7:13 am on Sunday, January 27, 2013

So you are saying that "Scientific Evidence", which we all know is not manipulated at all (ahem), supercedes real life experiences. You can tell me all the "Scientific Evidence" you want. That will not change what is actually happening in schools with disturbed teens every day. Ask any person you know who works in a school. They will tell you how desensitized children have become. Or, keep hiding behind your "data".

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Keith Kaplan

8:52 am on Sunday, January 27, 2013

"So you are saying that "Scientific Evidence", which we all know is not manipulated at all (ahem), supercedes real life experiences."

Yes

Vostra Guida

8:03 pm on Saturday, January 26, 2013

I agree that it does not happen often, but when it does happen at a school, it is horrific. The time it takes for the police to arrive is time during which more children and teachers are killed. Of course, having a police officer at the school does not guaranty the safety of our kids. Yes, a gunman could get lucky and kill the police officer first. Yes, the police officer could accidentally shoot someone in the cross fire (of course that could happen when the police arrive several minutes later too). There are many scenarios you can throw out where having a police officer at the school did not prevent all or even any deaths. But a police officer may also save some lives by killing or wounding the gunman, slowing him/her down, getting back up to arrive faster, etc. Given that the state imposes a "gun free" zone around schools (which I have no problem with), shouldn't the state have the responsibility to protect those in the gun free zone (if we disarm people we should have a greater responsibility in protecting them from those who disregard the law)? And of course, other solutions should also be considered and implemented (let's take a look at our mental health laws, and other ways to reduce violent crime, etc.). And maybe once all of those other solutions have been implemented there will be no need for a police officer at the school. But if you are looking for something that might help starting tomorrow, a police officer is a good (and easily implemented) start.

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Mikka H

9:21 pm on Saturday, January 26, 2013

That's great.....you people protect your money with armed guards but you can't have a few looking after your children?????? WTF is wrong with this picture????? which is more important to you????? answer me that......

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Joe videodummy

11:57 am on Monday, January 28, 2013

"Surprise is the greatest factor of War"- Tom Clancy
The ultimate goal is never having to defend ones-self, but knowing how to doesn't hurt.
Police and Armed Guards may patrol public schools, but what happens when the last bell rings and school is over for the day ? Are kids "less" vulnerable to being attacked outside of school ?
More instruction, education, and training should be the guide-lines we're taking to curb violence. That includes self-defense tactics.
The one obvious conclusion to all of the cases involving our schools being attacked is that the occupants ( students, teachers, and staff ) were "defenseless".
So the obvious solution is giving the occupants the necessary methods to defend themselves against such attacks. What to do with a ball-point pen, a belt buckle, high-heel shoes, a chalked-up eraser, a rubber band/paper clip, a whistle, a fire extinguisher, a house key etc. seem primative now, but not when it's all there is.
Armed Guards will only lead to attacker showing up more heavily armed to combat the newest obstacle, and any school that is using armed police or guards is just asking for an escalated assault. Eliminating temptation is going to take critical thinking, wit, and surprise. Catching the attacker " off guard" before an assault occur's should be every school and districts "new teaching tool" !

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